In today’s episode, we are once again joined by special guest, Veronica Hanus, to talk about ways to get involved in conferences. We have already talked about the topic multiple times in other episodes, so we are adding these past discussions. Veronica shares some tips from her own experience of getting into conferences. The most important thing she advises anyone to do is simply just to start. Start writing the proposals and use rejections to refine and rework your talk so that it will be the best that it can be. The words are not going to come out perfectly the first time, so you should get those ‘ugly words’ onto the paper to make room for your real message. Not all conference organizers are going to be able to give you feedback, so when you have a talk idea, tell it to everyone around you in order to get input from multiple different sources. This too will help you continually rework and refine your idea. As long as you keep going and don’t lose momentum, you will be wowing audiences with your talk in no time. For all this and more, join us today!
Key Points From This Episode:
Transcript for Episode 132. XYZ. Ways to Get Involved at Conferences with Veronica Hanus
[0:00:01.9] MN: Hello and welcome to The Rabbit Hole, the definitive developer’s podcast in fantabulous Chelsea, Manhattan. I’m your host, Michael Nunez. Our co-host today.
[0:00:09.8] DA: Dave Anderson.
[0:00:10.8] MN: Our producer.
[0:00:12.0] WJ: William Jeffries.
[0:00:11.5] MN: And today, we’ll be talking about ways to get involved in conferences.
[0:00:15.7] DA: There’s so many ways. We talked about a bunch already like we have Conferences, episode number 15, on the test. You know, we got number 55, Organizing a Conference, with Saron Yitbarek and we also talked about like how scary public speaking can be. But we’re going to dig into it a little bit more and we got some help to do that.
[0:00:34.1] MN: We have a special guest. Veronica Hanus, how’s it going, Veronica?
[0:00:37.6] VH: Hi, how are you doing? Glad to be here.
[0:00:40.3] MN: Awesome, Veronica, tell us a little bit about yourself?
[0:00:43.0] VH: I am a second career self-taught developer, which has been quite the adventure and I decided that I wanted to try out speaking, sometime last year and finally, you know, cracked into it at the beginning of this year and have been to, I think 17 conferences in five different countries in the last six months and I’m very tired, but very happy to be here.
[0:01:09.5] DA: Well, welcome back to New York.
[0:01:11.5] MN: Nice, welcome back.
[0:01:13.4] DA: Yeah, I remember like, looking at your Twitter profile and it’s just filled with emojis and every week, I look at your profile and you’re like, in a different city, I’m like, “what is this glamorous lifestyle that she’s leading?” I saw you at a conference and you were doing stuff there, you’re volunteering?
[0:01:31.5] VH: But was I glamorous while I was doing it?
[0:01:32.8] DA: I believe so, we were like in a very exclusive lunch meeting.
[0:01:36.9] VH: I see. Somewhere that you know, invited us both and was exclusive, that must have been very small.
[0:01:44.1] DA: And then the doors closed.
[0:01:47.3] MN: Nice.
[0:01:48.6] DA: Yeah, what’s your origin story like? How’d you decide like, “hey, you know what? I’m going to speak in all of the countries.”
[0:01:56.7] VH: All the countries. I didn’t actually decide all the countries. Other people helped decide that for me but what I said is, I’ve been wanting to speak for a long time and there was things that I was starting to see. Because you know, I was self-taught so I learned on the Internet and there’s lots of things you see when you learn on the internet that you have to like, swim through a little bit.
I started saying like,” huh, this is interesting, I don’t see other people talking about this. Is this something we should be talking about?” But there’s always that voice in the back of your head that’s like, “no, that is not what we’re talking about because other people aren’t talking about that.” Speakers have 30 years of expertise, obviously. Or perhaps even more than we’ve been using computers for, who knows? Those were like the things that I was pushing against.
And I also heard, there are plenty of folks who will tell you that things like, “well, if you're speaking and you’re doing all this work towards like visible stuff, you aren’t becoming the best and most hard-core programmer you could be.”
[0:03:02.2] DA: Wow, you’re not on Dvorak right now, are you?
[0:03:04.3] VH: You know what? I actually tried Dvorak, why? Because someone convinced me that I would be a real programmer if I could just be the most efficient at everything. Yes, I learned tech first, why? Because everybody was like, “you don’t know the LaTeX?”
[0:03:21.8] DA: What?
[0:03:23.7] VH: LaTeX is –
[0:03:24.3] MN: Sorry Bobby, you’re not a real programmer.
[0:03:25.6] VH: You don’t know LaTeX? You got to turn in your card. LaTeX is a type setting language, it is – it makes everything gorgeous and wonderful. Unfortunately, I was around and knew people at the time who could take their notes in LaTeX. “I’m in the math class and I’m just typing with LaTex the same way you might write in a notebook and keep up with the professor.”
[0:03:47.3] MN: This is like them?
[0:03:50.2] DA: It’s like a mark down for typographers or like people writing.
[0:03:56.8] VH: That Knuth guy that we all want to read but can’t actually read? You know, created it by like going through and deciding like measuring everything with a ruler and deciding like what the perfect layout for every letter was. It’s truly beautiful and it’s beautiful for both type and math and I think it’s fabulous and I’ve like done workshops about it and I really love it, but the reason I started doing that was because somebody was being a douche nozzle.
[0:04:25.4] MN: Yes.
[0:04:25.7] DA: Not sure which part of that they’re going to believe, but I’m very eager to hear.
[0:04:32.6] MN: Yeah.
[0:04:33.4] VH: You’ve gotten this far without LaTeX? Okay ladies and gentlemen. Today we have learned, you heard it first here on The Rabbit Hole, one does not need a specific tool in order to be a programmer.
[0:04:46.2] DA: Yes. YAGNI.
[0:04:47.6] MN: Yeah, in fact. You ain’t going to need it and yeah, there you go.
[0:04:50.9] VH: So, I had all these things kind of going through my mind and I was like, “yeah, there’s stuff I want to talk about and there’s things I could say but I don’t think I can.” And my partner at the time was like, you know, doing something that was really difficult for them and then you know, after he completed that task, felt like amazing and kind of jumped up and down and said, “okay Veronica, it’s your turn. What is it that you know what I’m saying? We got us through like this really hard thing.”
“What is it that you want to do?”
[0:05:24.2] DA: Like what amazing thing.
[0:05:26.3] VH: What amazing thing? What’s your new super power that we’re going to like, push you forward on? I said well, “I want to be able to speak.” We sat down and each wrote a submission and of course, his got picked right away and mine did not, right? There were tears. But in a lot of things changed in my life around that time, but I had started submitting and started getting feedback and I’m like, “everything’s changing and I don’t know what’s up, but I have this talk.”
I wanted to do this and one of my super powers since the beginning of time is going out and asking for help when I need it. I was like, “this part seems to be like sticking funny.” I just kept pinging people and kept like, reaching out and it started becoming a good talk. And I didn’t realize it was it was becoming a good talk until – I was just putting out CFP’s like it was you know, like it was my hobby, it was like swiping on Tinder, but for [inaudible 00:06:29], that’s what I was doing.
[0:06:31.1] DA: Playing the numbers game.
[0:06:32.7] VH: I mean, you have to play the numbers game and we can talk about that more if you like. You know, 10 CFP’s for Tinder is what I was doing and then –
[0:06:41.9] WJ: This is a great app idea.
[0:06:43.2] VH: Right? Don’t’ steal it from me all you, we’re –
[0:06:47.7] DA: Isn’t it trademarked right now?
[0:06:49.9] MN: Patent pending.
[0:06:51.3] VH: Right? It is now, you heard it here first.
[0:06:54.6] MN: You were getting feedback when you were submitting them to conferences and slowly working on this talk over and over and over, until it became the talk you wanted.
[0:07:07.3] WJ: The CFP reviewers, they were giving you feedback on every proposal?
[0:07:10.0] VH: That’s actually something I want to touch on. It’s pretty rare to get feedback from a CFP review, why? Because they’re even more exhausted than I am.
[0:07:18.9] WJ: Right, they have to review like a bazillion.
[0:07:21.5] VH: Usually there’s crew that’s helping them do it, especially for the larger conferences. But there’s always a couple of folks who are organizing, who are the ones that are going to get your email asking for feedback. They’re like, “oh, my god, that’s great, "and I think they all really want to. But that’s too many emails. There have been a couple of conferences that got back to me and one of them was North Bay PyCon and I still like hold them up as the amazing conference that gives all the help and support to new speakers.
Because that’s, it’s really like one in 10 that will get back to you. And I love to see that changed. If you are in that position like – you can spend some of that time or you know, figure out a way to make that happen.
[0:08:10.3] DA: Especially for like first time conference?
[0:08:12.3] VH: It really means a lot. It was like the thing that pushed me forward because you get, you know, you need to write something down to get feedback and you need to – but I spent a lot of time like talking to people, someone posted on Twitter. “Hey, I’m willing to mentor people who are new to speaking.” And I was like, “new best friend right here.” It was just like, it was like a hustle kind of experience.
[0:08:38.3] DA: I love the idea though just like asking. What I’m hearing is like, you ask for help, you ask for feedback.
[0:08:45.1] VH: You ask for help you ask for feedback and your topic is your new favorite thing. Imagine you have an Etsy store and you’re like, “this is going to be my new side hustle,”and all you do is you talk about your Etsy store to all of your friends. That’s who I was, still am, actually.
[0:09:00.6] DA: Carving driftwood with like you know, -
[0:09:04.3] VH: Right, that’s pretty much what a talk is, let’s be honest, it’s a little idea that probably sounded really silly to you at one time that you started molding into something and you know, you’re going to be talking to everybody about it. So, I did this for a while and it slowly started becoming a better and better idea and I didn’t realize that it was getting there until bam, I had like three acceptances in one month.
[0:09:30.8] DA: You were swiping right too much.
[0:09:34.8] VH: I was like, “three acceptances in one month, two of which are international. I’m either headed for like, you know, greatness or a breakdown?”
[0:09:45.5] DA: The truth is somewhere in between I’m guessing.
[0:09:48.3] VH: Yeah. So, tell me again about my glamorous life?
[0:09:52.7] DA: I mean, international travel, that sounds glamorous to me. And also, like kind of maybe a nice experience for a first talk because like, you know, your mom’s not going to be there, your friends aren’t going to be there probably.
[0:10:06.3] VH: Really wanted my mom to be there actually.
[0:10:10.2] DA: I don’t know, for me, I just would want to be like as far away from any social ramifications of it. Where it’s like okay, “if I screw up here, it’s just a bunch of like people in Barcelona. I don’t know anyone in Barcelona.”
[0:10:27.6] MN: You don’t ever have to show your face in Barcelona ever again.
[0:10:30.7] DA: Right. I’m just done with Barcelona after this, it’s over.
[0:10:33.6] VH: You know they have video recorders in Barcelona, right? And the Internet.
[0:10:37.5] DA: Oh no.
[0:10:38.6] VH: Right? I was really upset when I learned that too.
[0:10:44.1] DA: Did you actually give a talk in Barcelona?
[0:10:45.8] VH: I have not given a talk in Barcelona. So, like conferences in Barcelona, hit me up, I’m here. I do know folks that they have maps of places they’ve been and they say like, “you know, I’m trying to go to all of the continents. I’m going to see if I can do it this year,” and they have these goals and there’s all these little micro accomplishments that like come up for you as a speaker, that might be like very personal, just like you know, watching yourself grow as you speak or could be kind of more visible.
Something you would tweet about like I would feel a little weird tweeting you about some tiny little nuance like I realized, I’m getting into the main room at conferences more and more often. That feels a little weird but saying you know, “I’ve been to however many continents,” sounds a lot more visible and easy to share.
[0:11:43.4] DA: Right. How occlusive is it to get into PyCon Antarctica?
[0:11:50.5] VH: I don’t know. Challenge accepted.
[0:11:54.6] DA: All right. I also saw you like volunteering at a conference like I guess, vetting the CFP’s, being on the other side of the table of all the people asking for feedback and trying to swipe right.
[0:12:08.7] VH: I see. I see.
[0:12:09.2] DA: How is that? how did you get involved in that? The other side of the world?
[0:12:14.9] VH: Sure. I got involved, that was actually my first step. Sometimes before I submitted my first talk, when I was too terrified to submit my first talk, I was like, “okay, what does this look like? I want a scope first.” And so, I went undercover and I said, “I’m going to scope and I’m so dedicated to it, I’m going to read like 60 abstracts,” because you know, I was doing this for PyCon and they’re really good about splitting up the work and putting you on the teams and making sure that their volunteers don’t get overwhelmed because they’re wonderful and a great community and they want their volunteers to want to come back.
So, I looked at the rubric and I looked at what I heard people saying like what makes a good CFP, well it has these components and you want to be as specific as possible in your CFP because you don’t’ want to surprise the reviewers, even though you’re probably figuring things out yourself and people gave all this advice but I think really seeing that many abstracts and kind of seeing like,” wow, I don’t actually know what they’re going to say up there.” Was a real big thing for me and I was like, “wow, I actually need to be super specific and I actually need to – all this advice is good and now II can start to recognize what’s going to – is more likely to instill confidence than other things.”
[0:13:50.8] DA: You went behind enemy lines?
[0:13:52.9] VH: I don’t know about enemy lines. Let’s be real, these are – right? These are people, conference organizers are your friend and that is one thing that I have been so grateful for is the number of times that – I had a difficulty with travel ones. Would you like to hear about my difficulty with travel?
[0:14:12.1] MN: What was difficult about travelling?
[0:14:14.4] VH: So I tried to go to the Czech Republic, which is pretty far away and there were like four flights that it was like a four leg trip and something went wrong and when something goes wrong on a trip and you don’t have enough space for things to go wrong, it is like a domino and so I spent – it ended up taking me a day and a half longer than anticipated and I spent so much time running through – there was one time where I had to –
I missed a flight and I cried and found people who spoke the language of the place and they cried and everything was like sad and there was a lot of hopelessness because I was on a budget airline and they were like, “Ah yes, a human. We do not care. We see your pain, but in fact the door is closed 20 seconds ago and you know who we don’t care about? You.” So then to get this flight fixed you have to go to the counter, which is in some other terminal and then you have to leave.
Like go to the entrance of the airport and start over and then you have to get a new ticket and they’ll say, “Okay, you have to run though and then you have to run through the same corridors you just ran down with your backpack on and your legs feeling like they are numb underneath you and you’re like, “I have been up a very long time and I don’t know where the energy is coming from but I have to make this.” And then you run and maybe you’re early and sit down and cry some more and just everything –
[0:15:56.8] DA: This just sounds like a nightmare loop.
[0:15:58.6] VH: Everything was like, “I am in Groundhog Day, this is bad” and everything was hard about that trip. It was so hard in fact that at some point, you know contacting the organizer and the first thing he says is, “But are you coming?” And I am like, “Yes I am coming” and so every step I am like, “Hey I am here now” and at some point he just started making decisions for me. And to this day, I have the warmest place in my heart for them, you know PyCon CC folks.
Because I was too tired to really – I sat down in the London airport and sobbed until a man with a very large, a police officer with a very large gun came over with his finger on the trigger and said, “Is everything all right ma’am?” And I was like, “Yes sir, everything is just fine,” and I never stopped crying so fast and that was the trip I was having and so anyway.
[0:16:55.0] DA: I hope there is a happy ending there.
[0:16:56.9] VH: I did arrive. I arrived at about 4 AM the morning of my talk and I got up and I said words in front of people.
[0:17:06.0] MN: And everyone clapped at the end?
[0:17:08.4] VH: And there was some clapping at the end. So, I feel pretty good about it.
[0:17:11.8] MN: There you go.
[0:17:12.1] VH: But an amazing like the thing about conference organizing that I don’t think anybody understands until they’re there is like that person did not anticipate that there would be remote controlling of Veronica basically into their city, but that is that they had to do. And I felt like a rock star. I was like, okay so no matter what happens I am going to get there, why? Because this person is making this happen and thank you person because it is very hard.
And did you know that the words for everything in London are different? Like that airport they’re like separate corridors for taxis and ride shares and separate floors for – anyway they are separate and they’re different.
[0:17:55.1] MN: London is crazy.
[0:17:56.4] VH: There are different words and they’re like world war two happens and so there are many airports in that city and my itinerary was like you’ll switch airports and I was like, “Okay I will switch airports.” And it was – London is a whole different –
[0:18:12.5] MN: Craziness.
[0:18:13.8] DA: Yeah, it sounds like you got some kind of merit badge from that experience.
[0:18:18.1] VH: I think there might be a little blood on that badge’s pin or whatever.
[0:18:22.3] MN: I do have a question. Say am I a listener right now who wants to do a talk, what would be some tips that you would give to that person or if you can speak to your young self, what would you tell her about the talk that she wants to give?
[0:18:40.7] VH: Sure, there is a lot of different things to say. I think the most important thing is to remember that whenever you’re thinking of speaking about, no one can tell that story like you can. So, even if you are speaking about a topic that other people have spoken about, your take is going to be different and that is okay. I would say that you should get started because just saying, “Hey I have an idea,” will not be enough to get helpful feedback.
And the actionable feedback is going to come after you start getting that outline done, after you get some of those – you got to get the ugly words onto the page before they can become pretty words. I think those would be my first two bits. And after that it is a whole process of like getting feedback, finding, identifying the folks who can support you in what ways and then you know just keep submitting until the things happen.
[0:19:37.9] MN: Right, keep on swiping right.
[0:19:40.2] VH: Keep on swiping right.
[0:19:42.2] WJ: How do you go about practicing? Do you record yourself and then watch the video of you talking and give yourself notes?
[0:19:49.6] VH: That is incredibly hard to do. Apparently, my voice sounds – like everyone’s voice sounds different when it is not –
[0:19:58.3] WJ: When the words aren’t actually coming out of your mouth, right yeah. On playback is because when you are talking, the sound is actually reverberating through your skull and it makes everything sound fuller when you hear it.
[0:20:09.7] MN: Yeah, wait until an episode drops you will hear it.
[0:20:14.5] WJ: We feel this pain as podcasters if we go back and listen to ourselves going on it is like, “Oh man, my voice is so much squeakier to everyone else.”
[0:20:20.7] VH: So, I want to like –
[0:20:21.9] DA: Yeah, Muppety for me. Very Muppety.
[0:20:26.5] VH: You we got a live action Muppet on air though is not like so bad.
[0:20:30.5] DA: Yeah, you know that’s true. Man of a Muppet or a Muppety man whatever that song is.
[0:20:35.3] VH: The Muppets are pretty adorable. I want to just like say it is totally okay when you record yourself if you can’t listen like if you really cannot make it happen or you are hearing yourself, putting yourself down the entire time you are listening, which is something I have gone through it is okay to have a loving friend look at it and take some notes because they are going to see things that are positive that you can’t see yet because you only see bad stuff.
And they’re going to see stuff that you can improve and it is going to be an honest caring take. And often, we don’t have caring takes for ourselves.
[0:21:12.3] WJ: Yeah, I really like that idea. It is hard to get positive feedback like that reinforcing feedback and I think that often focusing on the things that are already good and making those even better or making sure that you preserve those is something that gets neglected when you’re crafting a talk.
[0:21:29.4] VH: Exactly. It is so easy to see the parts that need work. There are some ways so speaking at a local Meetup is fantastic. Meetups that have some – you know I have seen folks contact meet up organizers and you know sometimes they’ll even create an extra session like, “we are going to do two of these Meetups this month or something,” like that and are sometimes really accommodating. So, I would look at if you are writing, if you are speaking about a project or working a specific language, I would look at that Meetup.
I would look at general meet ups and I would just contact and ping them. I hear it is difficult to contact through meetup.com. So, I would get on those Slack or go to communities where you are already embedded and you know try to contact people as directly as possible. I made a mistake and it was like three months before my talk so I was like this is plenty of time and I contacted some people via meetup.com and some people by Slack and the bottom line is I didn’t hear back from anybody. So, I was like, “Oh my god who am I going to talk to? I am really give this thing in Belgium for the first time?”
[0:22:41.8] DA: I feel like Meetup is also like early some in New York there are some good people talking in meet ups. It feels like not complete wipe out beginner friendly.
[0:22:54.9] VH: Yeah, one thing I ran into and this was kind of an ugly – I think this is a gray spot on New York Meetup scene is I couldn’t get into any Meetups before I spoke.
[0:23:10.0] DA: Right, it is like chicken and egg.
[0:23:11.9] VH: I very much chicken and egged that and so you know I go to Belgium I survive. I go to four other countries first and then I get this message via meetup.com and it says, “Hey we’d love to have you speak,” and my mind is like that is about five months too late and so.
[0:23:31.9] DA: I am on the international circuit now.
[0:23:34.7] VH: Right? But I mean the thing that upset me was not like “I don’t want to speak at your meet up now. I am too much hot stuff.” It was more like, “Hey, Meetups are like for the people who are on the ground who are like, ‘I have this idea it is just forming and I want to say words about it.’” like those are the folks that meet at that spot.
And so, I did this thing where I said, “Hey, you know so if I speak at your meet up given the time, the amount of the length of your meet up, you are going to have one other speaker. Could I nominate someone?” And I was already composing the tweet like bring me your newest talk idea. We’re going to do this, let’s go kids, right?
[0:24:18.9] DA: I love it so many emojis on that.
[0:24:21.0] VH: There is going to be a lot of emojis and they said no and I was like, “Wow this is so…” and they had me give a lighting talk and they explained that this is like from here we’ll select the folks who will speak longer at the other Meet up and I was like –
[0:24:41.5] DA: Yes, the thunder dome.
[0:24:42.2] VH: Right?
[0:24:43.0] MN: Yeah thunder dome lighting talks.
[0:24:45.7] VH: I was like, “is this Meetup? Is this how it works in New York City? No wonder they wouldn’t listen to me before.” So, if you’re doing that meet up thing and you are organizing you got to be lifting up your people.
[0:25:01.2] MN: Yeah and lift up the requirements so that people can have the talks that they can work on and get that feedback from the community that they want to share with.
[0:25:10.3] VH: Exactly, you want to be doing things that are like idea generation and you want to be going to people individually and I remember one Meetup organizer when I first got started learning Python would literally like just talk to people and be like, “Hey so when are you going to give a lightning talk?” And it was the most amazing thing because I hear people and they go –
[0:25:30.2] DA: What is the title of your TED Talk?
[0:25:31.1] VH: Exactly they’d be like, “Oh no, I don’t.” And he’d be like, “No let’s talk about this a minute. You have a talk. You have a talk inside yourself.” And he would ask you this series of questions and you’d talk to him for 10 minutes and he’d be like, “I could give a talk.” And I just want to be this person. He’s like one of the Mr. Rogers of talk giving like yes, you can. You can do it. You all have a good idea and I definitely would like there to be as many spaces where that is the norm as possible because I had – no Cardigans are so good.
[0:26:13.7] DA: Kind of Mr. Rogers out.
[0:26:15.0] VH: Yeah that was a difficult point for me because I was like, “okay. So, I get accepted into an international conference. I am about to live the glam life.”
[0:26:25.5] MN: Glam squad yeah.
[0:26:27.3] DA: This morning in the airport.
[0:26:28.8] VH: Exactly.
[0:26:29.0] MN: There you go, stamping passports.
[0:26:32.5] WJ: Being chased by paparazzi.
[0:26:34.0] MN: There you go, yeah.
[0:26:34.6] VH: Right? It is actually extremely difficult to get a good picture of yourself up on stage. I don’t know –
[0:26:40.0] WJ: Terrible lighting.
[0:26:40.8] VH: Right? You know what I had to do, I have a pretty okay picture of myself on my website, but to get that, I went through my first talk, which had wonderful lighting etcetera and I took screenshots and I am not ashamed of this. Because I was like, “Or it would be a fuzzy picture of me taken by someone who is a wonderful person but in the 5th row and on their camera, etcetera.”
And people who live tweet during – I cannot tell you how amazing it feels to come off the stage and you’re like, “Remembering all of you worst moments or your memory is erased entirely.” And then you look at the tweets and you’re like, “Oh they got it.” they really got it.
[0:27:29.7] DA: Tons of feedback, good stuff.
[0:27:32.5] MN: Veronica how can people contact you?
[0:27:33.4] VH: So, I basically use Twitter as a business card right now. So, if you want to talk to me on Twitter I am @veronica_hanus and the last one is a toughie. It is Hanus and if you don’t use Twitter, there is still room for you in the world, I promise. You know I am anything at veronicahanus.com. So, you can do that. I have a website, it is veronicahanus.com and I have all the contact up there so you can do that if you want to do something find to GitHub just go crazy it’s good.
[0:28:11.6] DA: Star all those repos.
[0:28:12.5] VH: Yeah, star all the repos why not?
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[0:28:15.4] MN: Follow us now on Twitter @radiofreerabbit so we can keep the conversation going. Like what you hear? Give us a five star review and help developers like you find their way into The Rabbit Hole and never miss an episode, subscribe now however you listen to your favorite podcast. On behalf of our producer extraordinaire, William Jeffries and my amazing co-host, Dave Anderson and me, your host, Michael Nunez, thanks for listening to The Rabbit Hole.
[END]
Links and Resources:
Episode 55 - Organizing a Conference
